Rainer Maria Rilke Diskussionforum

Hi Marie,

I am copying this poem to a new topic as requested along with your comment as follows: This poem was written in 1922 just before Rilke finished the Elegies, that's why it's defined as an "Auftaktgedicht" (up-beat poem?) (See below)

“Solang du Selbstgeworfnes fängst, ist alles
Geschicklichkeit und läßlicher Gewinn -;
erst wenn du plötzlich Fänger wirst des Balles,
den eine ewige Mit-Spielerin
dir zuwarf, deiner Mitte, in genau
gekonntem Schwung, in einem jener Bögen
aus Gottes großem Brücken-Bau:
erst dann ist Fangen-Können ein Vermögen, -
nicht deines, einer Welt. Und wenn du gar
zurückzuwerfen Kraft und Mut besäßest,
nein, wunderbarer: Mut und Kraft vergäßest
und schon geworfen hättest..... (wie das Jahr
die Vögel wirft, die Wandervogelschwärme,
die eine ältre einer jungen Wärme
hinüberschleudert über Meere -) erst
in diesem Wagnis spielst du gültig mit.
Erleichterst dir den Wurf nicht mehr; erschwerst
dir ihn nicht mehr. Aus deinen Händen tritt
das Meteor und rast in seine Räume...“

I'm not sure if I have a translation for this or not. Could you give me just a quick translation of the first two lines? (No need for perfection - just a simple word-for-word rather than poetic translation would be fine) so I can look for it. I will have to look up lots of words for sure! Sounds interesting though (what little I can understand.)

Thanks for this poem and liebe Grüße,

Linda

It's me again. I forgot to ask which book this poem is from.

Hi Linda,
I don't want to interfere, but I just read the poem and while reading it I already started thinking about some appropiate words in English...

Sorry, Marie, I just start with the first lines, OK?

As long as you catch what you have thrown yourself
it's all skill and gain you can do without -;
only when you suddenly become catcher of the ball
an eternal girl-co-player
threw at you, at your center, in accurate
skillful pitch, in one of those bows
of God's great bridge-building:
only then your ability to catch is a power,-
not yours, a world's (power).

Hi Linda,

thanks for copying it under a new topic - makes it much easier!
I've already feared that you would need a translation ! I hope I'll get on with the first two lines to a point where you can recognize the poem.

"As long as you are catching what you have thrown yourself, it's just (literal: everything is) / skilfulness (ability?) and a reliable prize (profit?) -;"

"lässlicher Gewinn" has a double meaning: "verlässlich" is reliable, but "lässlich" can also be s.th. you can do without; "etwas sein lassen" in the sense of: let go of. It might be interpreted as: If you are acting in the described way, you will achieve a foreseeable secure result, but at the same time it can be worthless and meaningless.

I hope this is a help
Liebe Grüße M.

Hallo zu später Stunde! Ich werde eine Zeitlang nicht ins Forum kommen können, deshalb hier schnell der zweite Teil der Übersetzung:

Hi,
it's me again, I'll not be able to visit the forum for a while. Therefore, here's the second part of the translation. (I tried to transfer the meaning - as far as I understand it - into English - to my best knowledge and belief, but without guarantee!)

As long as you catch what you have thrown yourself
it's all skill and gain you can do without -;
only when you suddenly become catcher of the ball
an eternal girl-co-player
threw at you, at your center, in accurate
skillful pitch, in one of those bows
of God's great bridge-building:
only then your ability to catch is a power,-
not yours, a world's (power). And if you even
had the strength and courage to throw back,
no, more marvelous still: if you forgot courage and strength
and had already thrown.... (like the year
throwing birds, the swarms of migrant birds,
an older warmth hurls towards a younger one
across the seas -) only
in this daring game you are a valid player.
You don't try to make the pitch easier any more, don't
make it more difficult. Out of your hands steps
the meteor and is hurtling into its spaces...

Hi Marie and Volker,

Thanks to both of you for the translations and explanations. That was really a quick translation Volker. I had just finished looking up all of the words I didn't know, and was just getting ready to see what I could come up with. Your translation made that process much easier for me. You must be thinking in English these days as much translation as you have done lately! I'm very tired right now, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow for my comments on the translation and/or questions.

Thanks so much and viele Grüße to you both!

Linda

Hi,

I was to tired and still dizzy because of illness yesterday evening for any proper translation. The choice "it's all skill and gain you can do without" fits much better. The term "reliable" can only be used in an ironical or sarcastic way, but that doesn't make sense in English - only in German you have the similar sound of "verlässlich" and "lässlich" which is quite contradictory.
I already thought about something adequate for "ewige Mitspielerin", because the literal translation sounds so "sporty", like you're talking about a baseball team or a tennis double, but so far I didn't find anything more suitable that is both: spiritual and romantic. (Perhaps I should first have a good breakfast and than my brain works in "higher dimensions"?!)

Viele Grüße M.

Hi Linda,

I continue with explaining rather than translating my understanding of the “ewige Mit-Spielerin” and of the poem in general:

At first one has to bear in mind that Rilke believed in reincarnation and was looking to find his female twin-soul or “eternal soul-mate”. It’s the one you are going through many existences together as dear way-farers to support each other on the way to realization and unity. (Every “du” written in this poem could as well be an “I” (= Rilke himself)).
That doesn’t mean that those accompanists were always joined together in harmonic circumstances, far from this they can be opponents to (in a deeper meaning) be mutually helpful. Therefore the game also is a risk (“Wagnis”) and needs courage and strength (“Mut und Kraft”). The end of the poem shows a new quality: the “Meteor” as a synonym for great power appears after every intention of being brave, strong, use- or helpful or whatever you can think of has dropped out of the “acting” so it becomes a completely new (both mystic and concrete) reality.
The “Meteor” was one of the most impressing memories Rilke kept inside since he had seen it standing on a bridge in (I believe it was) Toledo. You can find it as well in the poem “Da steht der Tod…” – another of my favourites – as a symbol for the “great death” which unites love and death or life and death by an inner agreement to anything that happens. At the end of the Elegies it’s indicated ,too, when there is mentioned “the falling fortune”.

It’s a very personal interpretation and probably not anyone would agree to this especially to what I wrote concerning the spiritual background. But I’m convinced that one can’t read Rilke without rundesache this in mind, because his spirituality is the most important part of his poetic and prosaic work and builds the base for a deeper understanding.

I’m looking forward to your comment!

Liebe Grüße M.

Hallo Volker,

ich hatte deinen ersten Teil der Übersetzung glatt übersehen (hatte wohl nicht damit gerechnet, dass du so flott zur Stelle bist!), sonst hätte ich die 2 Zeilen ja nicht noch mal übersetzt. "Sorry" - für was? Ich finde die Übersetzung prima, mal von dem Problem mit der "ewigen Mit-Spielerin" abgesehen. Rilke hat ja nicht zufällig das Wort getrennt geschrieben, dahinter steckt in der Regel der Hinweis einen Begriff anders als gewöhnlich zu verstehen (Heidegger war doch auch so ein Worttrennungskünstler, glaub' ich?!), ob das in der einer wörtlichen Übersetzung rüber kommt, kann nur ein Nativ-Speaker nach vollziehen.

Viele Grüße M.

Hi Marie and Volker,

First let me say that your translation was excellent Volker, and I am amazed at how quickly you were able to come up with it. Below is what I came up with (with the help of your translation) and Marie’s very helpful explanation of words and concepts. But first a few words about the difficult parts.

For starters, I would never in a million years have figured out what “läßlich” means without the explanation and translation. The only word for it in the dictionary was “pardonable,” which didn’t seem to fit. This is obviously something that only a native speaker could possibly know. I did think that your choices of “worthless” and “meaningless” for “something you can do without” were excellent choices, Marie, and I chose “meaningless” in my translation.

I was unsure whether “profit” or “gain” was the best choice for “Gewinn.”

As far as the problem with “ewige Mitspielerin,” I’m not sure what the best translation would be. “Teammate” was about the closest thing I could come up with. However, that doesn’t reflect the female gender as does the word Mit-Spielerin (if I am not mistaken). Someone more into sports than I am might perhaps be able to come up with something better. “Female counterpart” is the only other word I could think of which expresses the feminine attribute, but it doesn’t have the connection with sports that “teammate” has. “Partner” might be another choice.

I chose “curves” rather than “bows” in the line “in einem jener Bögen aus Gottes großem Brücken-Bau” because there is something called a “curve ball” in English (in the baseball game), and I thought it fits well. (There is still the same connection as bow or arch which are both curves.) Also, Marie, could you please give me an interpretation of this sentence. (I am assuming that the reference to “Bögen” is connected to the rainbow.)

It sounds strange in English to say that “the year throws birds,” (wie das Jahr die Vögel wirft), but I didn’t try to change it, since I couldn’t seem to come up with a better way of putting it.

I had much difficulty with the line “die eine ältre einer jungen Wärme hinüberschleudert über Meere,“ and would never have figured it out without your translation, Volker. The word order of this sentence is very confusing to me. I changed this line a bit in my translation. I don’t know if it works or not. What do you think?

“Wagnis” was another problem for me, and I would never have thought to add “game” to it. “Risk” or “Adventure” was about all I could come up with, but adding game to the risk is so much better. (Good thinking, Volker!)

“Erleichterst dir den Wurf nicht mehr” is another sentence I had lots of problems with (mainly because I need to go back and review the dative case in German). When I first read this, I thought that it was saying that “the pitch doesn’t get any easier,” and not until reading your translation, Volker, did I realize what it really means. I really must take some time to review my German. It would certainly make this all much easier.

And for the last line “Aus deinen Händen tritt das Meteor und rast in seine Räume,“ a question for Volker. Which German word implies the “hurtling” that you used or was that just a touch of your poetic abilities? I thought that “A meteor would flame out of your hands and tear through its own spaces” sounds good, but “steps” is a more literal translation of “tritt” than “flame” which would perhaps be taking too much liberty in translation!

Thanks to both of you as always. This is a very interesting poem – difficult to translate into English though, because it says several things that sound a bit strange in English - just the first line of the poem alone sounds strange, even once you understand what it means.

Okay, here is my attempt at translating this poem, most of which has been borrowed from Volker’s translation. Please advise me of any changes that you feel should be made (and please don’t worry about hurting my feelings with different choices of words! I am always open to suggestions!)

As long as you catch what you throw at yourself,
all is merely skillful but meaningless gain;
only when you suddenly become the catcher of the ball
thrown to you by an eternal teammate,
into your very center, with a precise
skillful swing, in one of those curves
of God’s great bridge-building:
only then is catching know-how an ability, –
not yours, but the world’s. And if you perhaps
had the strength and courage to throw back,
no, more wonderful still: If you forgot courage and strength
and found you had already thrown... (like the year
throws birds, the flocks of migrating birds,
thrown from an older warmth to a younger
over across the oceans – ) only
in this risky game you are in effect playing along.
You don’t throw an easy pitch anymore; you don’t
make it more difficult. A meteor steps
out of your hands and rests in its own spaces...

One last question – Do you think “skillful” or “clever” is the best choice for the translation of Geschicklichkeit in the second line? (ist alles Geschicklichkeit und läßlicher Gewinn - all is merely skillful but meaningless gain). I went with "skillful" but I think I prefer "clever."

Also, in regards to the first line, “As long as you catch what you throw at yourself,” I used “at yourself” because there is an expression “to throw a question at someone,” so I thought it might work even though this is still a strange sentence in English. “To yourself” might be better or maybe just plain “throw yourself” all by itself works just as well. I was just trying to make it more understandable. What’s the general consensus?

Lastly (I promise!), do you think that "thrown at you" would be better than "thrown to you" in this sentence: "thrown to you by an eternal teammate,"

Viele Grüße,

Linda

Hallo Volker and Marie,

Another question -- In regards to the first line of this poem, is there really any need to add "yourself" or "at yourself" to this line? Does "Selbstgeworfnes" imply you are throwing something at or to yourself or simply that you are the one doing the throwing? If you say "As long as you catch what you throw," it implies you are the one throwing, but not necessarily to yourself, and I think it sounds better in English, but I wouldn't want to change the meaning of the word "Selbstgeworfnes."

Also, how long is "eine Zeitlang?" (I hope it isn't too long, since that's how long Volker said he won't be in the forum!) Also, I hope you are feeling better today, Marie!

Viele Grüße,

Linda

Hi Linda,

I had to work this evening and just came back. My son told me a minute ago, that he urgently needs a Rilke-interpretation for TOMORROW!!! (It is nearly tomorrow now!) So I'm buisy for a while, but I will respond to your questuions later on or tomorrow morning.

Liebe Grüße M.

Hey, I'm still here - unexpectedly, though.
Ich bleibe nun wohl doch noch "eine Zeitlang" hier, auf Abruf sozusagen.
I'm on Standby.

Linda, I tried to translate as close as possible (possible for me) to the original. So it's more a literal translation than a "poetic" one. And I know the word order is not always correct.
As to your remarks here are my comments. I take your translation to go through your questions one by one:


As long as you catch what you throw at yourself,
"Selbstgeworfenes" simply means that you are the one who has thrown, not necessarily at or to yourself.
all is merely skillful but meaningless gain;
"Geschicklichkeit" means skill - nothing else. "läßlich" refers only to "Gewinn". So I would translate:
all is merely skill and meaningless gain
only when you suddenly become the catcher of the ball
thrown to you by an eternal teammate,
("at" or "to"? - I don't know. Damned English prepositions!)
into your very center, with a precise
skillful swing, in one of those curves
"Bogen" means bow, but curve is also OK
of God's great bridge-building:
only then is catching know-how an ability,
"Können" is ability, "Vermögen" is also ability, but (IMHO) more in the sense of power.
not yours, but the world's. And if you perhaps
had the strength and courage to throw back,
no, more wonderful still: If you forgot courage and strength
and found you had already thrown... (like the year
throws birds, the flocks of migrating birds,
thrown from an older warmth to a younger
over across the oceans ) only
in this risky game you are in effect playing along.
"Wagnis" - risky game, OK. But "Wagnis" has something to do with "wagen" (dare), that means it needs "Mut" (courage) to dare something.
You don't throw an easy pitch anymore; you don't
make it more difficult. A meteor steps
out of your hands and rests in its own spaces...
das Meteor ... rast in seine Räume
"rasen" = to speed, to rush (not rest), implies very high speed, almost not under control, that's why I thought "hurtle" is a nice term. No?

Hi Volker,

Thanks for your comments. There are always so many different choices for a word in the dictionary, that I am never sure which one to choose. For example, these are the choices for Geschicklichkeit in my dictionary: skill, skillfulness, ability, cleverness, slickness, expertness, subtlety. When I read those choices, I always assume I can take my pick, but I guess that isn’t always the case. Without help, it’s so difficult to know which choice fits best.

I obviously mixed up the words “rasen” and “rasten”! Oh the joys of trying to speak another language!

I will get back to you about the three poems you sent (Goethe and Hölderin). I haven’t had a chance to look up all the words yet. That will take a while.

Viele Grüße,

Linda

Hi Linda,

I’m adding some more thoughts and explanations to what Volker has written (which probably was already helpful to you).

- Sorry, I wrote s.th. in German above about the “ewige Mit-Spielerin”. Usually the word is written in one (“Mitspielerin”). In a philosophic or poetic context the division of a word is a method to point out a different meaning from the daily use of it. It emphasizes the term and increases the awareness of a more comprehensive understanding. If you choose “team-mate”, will this style of writing have the same effect in English?

- “aus Gottes großem Brücken-Bau” (= again this method to attract attention and elevate the word out of its common usage) Sometimes only another person is able to “throw” impulses your soul (“deiner Mitte” as a metaphor for soul) needs to get a step further. Often one avoids to look at parts of its own inner world and continuously prefers the secure way (to catch “Selbstgeworfnes”) without taking a risk. Than “God” is building “bridges”: s.b. else appears to make sure that what ever is necessary achieves the inner goal (Am I to complicated with my pictures and explanations?): the “Mit-Spielerin” appears (this stupid, annoying, naughty and useless idiot who attacks our perfect world – that’s our view as long as we refuse to “catch the ball”).

- “wie das Jahr die Vögel wirft” sounds strange in German as well! It’s a metaphor similar to “Brücken-Bau”. If the one who has caught the ball will be able to throw it back it’s a powerful way of showing that he accepts the gamee. Skillfulness isn’t the matter, nor “Kraft und Mut” –even an “older (and weaker) warmth” can do this – it’s the attitude towards the life-game that makes all the difference!

- “clever” seems to me to be the more common version. I’m not sure if it fits here – I have to leave it up to the native speaker.

- The meaning of “Selbst” (= (your)self) in “Selbstgeworfnes” is underlined, I guess, because it already refers to “Mit-Spielerin” as an alternating point of view. If you “throw” and “catch” s.th. YOURSELF it’s all under your OWN control and that is “lässlicher Gewinn”. The contrast to that is to trust into the wisdom of “God’s great bridge-building” and to catch the ball ANOTHER person has thrown without knowing, planning or controlling what might happen then.

It was a little difficult for me to enlighten those complicated aspects in English. I hope you will figure out what I struggled to say?!?

Thanks, I’m well again!

Liebe Grüße M.